Courageous
Podcast

Ryan Berman 0:00

This is a show about facing fear, unlocking courage, and taking action.

 

Speaker 2 (Female) 0:05

Courage isn't necessarily a daunting thing.

 

Speaker 3 (Male) 0:07

It's going to give you more purpose, it's going to give you more drive.

 

Speaker 4 (Male) 0:10

It feels like making a courageous decision is going to get you closer to who you aspire to be.

 

Ryan Berman 0:14 

It’s knowledge, plus faith, plus action equals courage.

 

Griffin Thall  0:18

That's when the brand was started, with a mission to do good, to be different, to help out the artisans, to partner with different charities, to make donations, to create an impact, and make a change. The brand was always started with that mission, so it's pretty amazing every time we’d see the numbers that we're doing for these charities.

 

(Intro Music 0:35-0:41)

 

Ryan Berman  0:42

So, 12 years old, if I'm getting this right, correct, happy birthday.

 

Griffin Thall  0:48

Thank you.

 

Ryan Berman  0:49

Can you believe you’re 12? Does it feel like a blink, or does it feel like forever?

 

Griffin Thall  0:54

Yes, pretty crazy. We've been doing it for 12, yeah, over 12 years now, and it's just been quite the ride. We started the brand from a bedroom floor in Pacific Beach with me and my business partner, Paul. Went on a surf trip in Costa Rica, I met these two guys in the beach name Jorge and Joaquin, and then brought the bracelets back to San Diego where we put them online, cold called, surfed stores, door knocked gift stores, did whatever we could just to get the product in people's hands. Then we went back to our roots where we just graduated from in San Diego State University, and we hit up our contacts in the Greek system; the fraternities, the sororities, made little announcements in their chapter rooms during their meetings, and had our computers out and told people the story. Gave them a free bracelet in exchange for a like on our Facebook fan page, which sounds like a long time ago, right?

 

Ryan Berman  1:48

(Laughs)

 

Griffin Thall  1:49 

Facebook fan page, seeing that big thumbs up for like. And yeah, that was just our goal; get as many impressions and customers as possible, until we attended our first trade show where we had a little booth at a trade show called Magic Project show in Vegas. And my dad had a connection there, so it was actually his friend's booth and he gave us access to put our bracelets stand just on the edge table of my dad's friend's booth. And the guy ended up getting so frustrated with us because we had so many customers coming to see what Pura Vida was all about that it was just chaos. We were selling so many bracelets, opening up so many new accounts, and my dad's friend was like, “All right, I'm over this. You guys take the booth,” and it was our booth at the end of that show, which is pretty funny.

 

Ryan Berman  2:33

What was he selling? What was his booth?

 

Griffin Thall  2:36

He was just selling clothes, just some apparel brand. And all the clothes were on the wall, and cubbies, and stuff. And we just had a bracelet tree that was maybe six inches deep and 12 inches wide, and we had one person standing there. I don't know what happened, but we were running around the tradeshow passing out bracelets to all the brands, all the booths saying, “Come by for more”, blah, blah, blah. And really just created this buzz, and I don't know, it brought buyers into the store. So then, it kind of opened us up pretty quickly to be selling in like 50 stores after the first show while we were still going around to the sororities and fraternities, passing out bracelets at the beach, in our hometown, or in our college town that we just graduated from, Pacific Beach, and we just kept the foot on the gas. The first year we did 750k from my bedroom floor. Got our first office down the street, four employees. We hired our best friend, Jared, and Paul’s sister, Aaron, those were our first two big hires. And then, from there it was just getting people to fulfill, pack the orders, customer service. Basic stuff for eCommerce. Then we started working with influencers, and the brand really just skyrocketed from there.

 

Ryan Berman  3:44

Griffin, so I think I read somewhere September 29^th is the actual official birthday, but you guys had five weeks in Costa Rica while he was still in college. So, was it like you spent the summer... You obviously came back to the school, so had you graduated and then…?

 

Griffin Thall  4:03

Yeah. So, it was our college graduation trip. So, we graduated college and then went to Costa Rica for a celebration of the culmination of college.

 

Ryan Berman  4:15

Was there any point… Again, it's 12 years ago and you’re in Costa Rica, but any part of you that was like, “What the heck are we going to do now?”

 

Griffin Thall  4:27

Yeah. I think in our heads, we were just like, “If this doesn't take off, then we'll just polish off our resumes and go find a real job.” We didn't really want to do that. We both knew that being an entrepreneur was something we've always wanted to do and happened naturally to us. We've always been leaders in our college, in our social circles, in our fraternity lives, so to come up with an idea like Pura Vida so authentically, so organically. We just use our skills to turn it into a brand.

 

Ryan Berman  4:58

I always say, “Market the creature, not the feature.” And really, I don't think you've ever been selling bracelets, you've been selling a belief, like a way of life. Is that how you see it?

 

Griffin Thall  5:09

Yeah.  We've always felt that way. It was always creating the brand first and selling the product second. It's creating a lifestyle through the bracelets, through all the products that we make, and the people that we work with, and the visuals, and the imagery, and the social media. The way that you walk into our retail stores and our trade show booths, you're just wowed by color, by happiness, by cheerfulness, by smiles. Just a really feel-good environment is what Pura Vida means. Ever since day one, that's been our goal. And if you look at our branding and marketing now, it's still the same way.

 

Ryan Berman  5:45

I feel like we jumped right in, so I'm going to pretend that this is the open here. You guys took a $200 investment and you turned it into a $130 million company. And amazing execution. Like you said, there's a true, like… Looking for the emotion, looking for the smiles, looking for the color. I think I read somewhere, you've sold over 20 million bracelets, 2,500 different bracelet styles, designed to over 11,000 products. What do you have in store for the next decade?

 

Griffin Thall  6:17

Yeah, it's a big milestone. Just got to keep creating. Nothing too crazy, we just got to keep our eye on the prize, continuing to maximize what we're doing with our five retail stores. Continuing to be creative, work with top talents. Continuing to be authentic. Telling a good story. Donating to the dozens of charities that we work with and support. Being real, being authentic, and just really just being a brand that people want to be a part of.

 

Ryan Berman  6:44

So, can you share with me your role in the company? Between you and Paul, what's the breakdown in responsibilities?

 

Griffin Thall  6:54

Yeah. So, we did rock paper scissors at the way beginning just to see who was CEO or CFO, and I won, so I guess I'm the CEO and he's the CFO. But, it’s really good to know…

 

Ryan Berman  7:05

Was it a two in a three, at least, or was just one time out of the gate?

 

Griffin Thall  7:08

I think it was two out of three, but either way, there's no seniority between us. We've always been sharing the hat of the leader of the organization where I focus more on marketing and he focused more on finance, and operations, and setting up the structure of the business. Where I would always focus on the social media, the website, the design, the email marketing, and just the more creative vision of the brand.

 

Ryan Berman  7:35

Today, are you still in that space? Do you still love what you're doing? Maybe that seems like a silly question, but you have been doing it for 12 years now.

 

Griffin Thall  7:44

Yeah, I’m sitting on my desk right now talking to you.

 

Ryan Berman  7:48

So, there's the answer.

 

Griffin Thall  7:52

Yeah.

 

Ryan Berman  7:52

What do you think companies... There's been a lot of companies that have come and gone, and I do think that love matters. When you love what you do it shows and it ends up in the product. What advice would you have for any -- whether it's fashion or just a brand, someone's listening and they're building a brand, give me the three pieces of advice you would give them.

 

Griffin Thall  8:16

I think finding a product that's higher value to start with. Just because digital marketing is so expensive, selling products like Pura Vida that are 5 to $10, sometimes, that marketing span gets a little bit difficult. So, I would say, a price point of something that’s maybe $100 or more per item. I would also say, you really want to open up a retail store and focus on wholesale right off the bat, like a three-prong multi-channel approach from day one. And just be aware of the surroundings. eCommerce is a lot more challenging, influencers are more expensive, cost of goods are higher, wages are higher, there's more challenges than ever to start a brand right now. I don't know if Pura Vida selling $5 bracelets would have been able to survive starting out right now, so sometimes, brands are meant to start when they started and not always in the current situation. So, I think that we had a mix of luck, and a mix of creativity, and a mix of timing, all three of those. We started the brand when Facebook was the thing, and no one had Instagram, it didn't exist yet. We also started the brand when mobile shopping was not even a thing, it was all about buying on your laptop. So, you got to think. We started the brand in a completely different generation, which is crazy. And we also started the brand when our organic reach was at 100% on our Facebook fan page. So, you flip that on its head when organic reach is basically 1% instead of 100, and now, you're focusing on Instagram and TikTok, it's a completely different business model than it was when we started. So, I think that brands need to realize what they're jumping into. And I think, now, it's about being a personality, very founder-focused, having your face on the screen so people can see you, and listen to you, and talk to you, and trust you and engage. I think that's really important, as opposed to just spending a bunch of money on Facebook ads, and trying to become profitable off that model, and raise more capital, and try to get a big valuation, that's the pre-iOS model.

 

Ryan Berman  10:20

So, how grateful are you that you guys were, sort of, founded a decade ago? Just the fact that you went to college back, and then, off you go, versus if you launch today.

 

Griffin Thall  10:32

Yeah, it's timing. It's a completely different model. I think that we're very fortunate that we launched when we did. And we created a brand that really fit a niche and service to our customers in a time where affordability mattered, and the cost of acquisition was much lower, and there wasn't a lot of competition in the marketplace. We were the only bracelet brand then, now there's other bracelet brands, now a lot of retail stores sell bracelets. So, it's just the cycle.

 

Ryan Berman  11:00

You said it. There wasn't any Instagram, there wasn't any Shopify. I'm pretty sure it was a WordPress site at first, correct?

 

Griffin Thall  11:07

Yeah. We were on Magento, and it crashed when we had a big sale. And then, we had to get all these developers overseas who only knew the Magento code. It was a disaster. And now, it's much easier to run a Shopify store.

 

Ryan Berman  11:20

So, this being a show about courage, I got to ask. As you think about, okay, let's say September 29^th 12 years from now pops around, as you sort of stroll in your 25th anniversary, knock on wood, hopefully, what does Pura Vida look like that you could share?

 

Griffin Thall  11:38

Yeah. I think even now on its retail distribution and where people are buying the products from. I think our retail stores -- right now we have five, I think that could grow to 20 in our major markets. Amazon will become a bigger player than it is now naturally because our customers are shopping there, it's a much easier process than it is shopping on eCommerce sites. So, for spending less on digital ads, then more people are just going to be spending more time and buying from brands through Amazon, naturally. So, I see Amazon becoming a bigger piece of the pie, retail stores becoming a bigger piece of the pie, and then I see eCommerce and wholesale staying where they are, or maybe finding some growth if there's a different strategy.

 

Ryan Berman  12:25

So, I'm just curious what ‘a day in the life’ is like for you. So, there's a pie chart of the 24 hours of your day, how does it get broken down for you?

 

Griffin Thall  12:36

Yeah. I think with work, it's just coming into the office, or working from home, mixing it up. I deal with my team, I work with them, creative team especially. Whether it's talking about new campaigns, the visual identity of the brand, what new things we have coming up, what influencers we want to work with, what are some big campaigns that we have, changes to the website, what we're doing in office, what events we have coming up, how we're going to continue to build the brand ambassador program. I would say anything that has to do with the end user looking at the brand and customer-facing, approving assets for the retail stores, stuff like that.

 

Ryan Berman  13:12

Again, fear and courage are brothers, right? So, is there a big fear that keeps you up at night? Or, as the business continues to evolve or change, is there anything that you're like, “Okay, we've got to crack this nut, this is the one thing that I'm absolutely terrified about”?

 

Griffin Thall  13:34

I think there's still fear and uncertainty with inflation and consumer spending. We're selling lower priced items, so I think that the people that are buying the products might be more sensitive to higher costs in the marketplace, or food, and rent, and some of these things that have just gotten to be pretty high and unaffordable over the past year or so. I would say that's a fear. I think we really need to figure out how to crack the TikTok code, which we really just smash out of the park with Instagram. We were the first brand in our space to hit a million followers, then 2 million followers. No one was even remotely close to us. We just blew past everyone. And with TikTok, we haven't. So, I think that that's something that doesn't keep me up at night, but it definitely is something like, “Hey, how do we do this?” Because we haven't done it yet.

 

Ryan Berman  14:24

It's pretty cool to see how much revenue you've given back to charities, or meals to feed America. When you think about what you've done for others, is that a pinch-me moment? Did it always feel that way? If it did, yeah, I have a... One of my little side projects is called Sock Problems, and every sock solves a different problem in the world, and each sock has a different charity partner on it. I remember thinking, “How awesome could it be if we could create this win-win-win?” Where consumer gets what they want, charity gets what they want, you're supporting these causes. Is it still a pinch-me moment when you think about how much of an impact you've made?

 

Griffin Thall  15:09

Yeah, it's pretty amazing every time we do the quarterly updates and see the numbers that we're doing for these charities, it's pretty awesome. That's why the brand was started. The brand was started with a mission to do good, to be different, to help out the artisans, to partner with different charities, to make donations, to create an impact, and make a change. So, the brand was always started with that mission, so, to me, it's always been like that.

 

Ryan Berman  15:36

Did you always have the entrepreneur bug?

 

Griffin Thall  15:39

Yes, before Pura Vida, I had three other businesses in high school and college.

 

Ryan Berman  15:44

Do you mind sharing them?

 

Griffin Thall  15:46

Yeah. First business that I did was selling stuff on eBay in my bedroom, just random things that I found at the swap meet with my dad when I was 17. I used his social security number to basically have an eBay account because I couldn't get one yet because I wasn't 18. Then I started to sell these like little cars, and these little candles, and stuff. And then, one day my dad walked in and he's like, “Why is everything in your room gone except your bed?” So, I told him I was selling stuff on eBay. And then, I found someone that was selling cell phones, used cell phones on eBay, and I asked him if I could buy a couple. And then, I bought a couple, and I marketed the ad better than he did, so I sold them pretty quickly. So, I asked him if I could buy a couple more, and I ended up selling, I think, maybe five phones a day on eBay with a margin of $20 for all of my senior year of high school. So, if you do the math, it's a pretty substantial profit that I made that last year of high school. Then, from there, I went to college with a good amount of cash that I earned from the eBay business. And when I was in the fraternity, I started doing graphic design for the Greek system T-shirts. Hoodies for the sororities and fraternities. Started buying hundreds of T-shirts, selling them at a margin, and then, you can do the math there. Dozens of sororities every semester, and fraternities. Then, from there, when I turned 21, I moved to PB. I realized that there was a niche for the knowledge of happy hours because, when you're 21, you want to save a buck or two when you go out with your friends. So, I made a list of all the bars and restaurants in PB, created a website for them that changed daily with the specials, had all the bars pay me every month to keep the specials up to date and fresh. And then, in the weekends, I would host events at each of the bars and restaurants that would pay a fee per person that walked in.

 

Ryan Berman  17:37

First of all, wow. It's pretty awesome all the things that you've been able to just accomplish in... I'm assuming you see yourself as a pretty curious guy.

 

Griffin Thall  17:49

Yeah, I feel like I'm curious. I ask a lot of questions. I think I always like to find a creative way to make things easier or better in a social environment that I'm in. Whether it's just with my friends, or whether it's hosting someone's birthday, or whether it's making a fun event on the weekend, I feel like I'm always that person, and I enjoy it. I think it just really shows that I have a big interest in the community, and making things fun, and engaging, and just making sure everyone has a good time. So, whether that is with the business or personal, that's kind of been always my personality.

 

Ryan Berman  18:25

Have you had a chance to look behind the curtain of other c-suites and how they established themselves and what those teams look like? Because, where I'm going on this is, this is good for the listener because you and I have never met before, this is like the first time we've had a conversation. So, the way that we describe ‘courageous’ is three levels; there has to be knowledge, there has to be faith, and there has to be action, and you need all three. So, we have a knowledge-gathering team, which is the ‘think’ side of our business. We've got a faith-building team, which the ‘field’ side of our business. And then, we've got an action-taking side of our team, which is the do. So, the think team, the field team, and the do team. What you see most c-suites, it's like 80% think, 20% do, and feel got left off the table completely. The way you talk about creativity -- I wish people could see me nodding my head. Why do so many teams miss this part? Why is it getting left off the table? Or, are you seeing something different and you’re like, “Actually, Ryan, I don't see it that way”?

 

Griffin Thall  19:28

I don’t know, I think it just has to come natural to the founder. Some founders are born into tech and data, or finance, or some founders are just really good public speakers, and good at raising money, and making that their narrative. I feel like, for me, it's always been creative, energetic, fun, community, and just really creating a vibe. Whether it's the culture on Instagram or the culture with my friends on the weekends.

 

Ryan Berman  19:53

Can you turn it off?

 

Griffin Thall  19:57

I don't know, I don't think so. I think it's kind of just my personality. But when I'm on, I'm on. And when I'm tired and not engaged in something, then my true colors will show.

 

Ryan Berman  20:08

As a creative person, do you feel like… And as an entrepreneur you're like, “I know the next two or three businesses I want to start,” or are you like, “No, I'm pretty laser-focused on what I need to do; Pura Vida?”

 

Griffin Thall  20:23

No, I think I'm just living in the moment and doing in the moment. I'm not really… I'm not a big planner, I kind of just like where I'm at right now.

 

Ryan Berman  20:34

That's not a terrible place to be.

 

Griffin Thall  20:36

Yeah.

 

Ryan Berman 20:37

I'm assuming… As you're smiling, I'm assuming you're happy with how this has all turned out so far.

 

Griffin Thall  20:44

Yeah. Yeah. No complaints.

 

Ryan Berman  20:45

Do you think that at some point you will… Is San Diego your home now, or do you feel like you're still an LA guy who happens to live in San Diego?

 

Griffin Thall  20:55

No, I've been here for like 15 years now, and I have a place here and a place up and up in Santa Monica, so I kind of go back and forth.

 

Ryan Berman  21:04

So, my dirty little secret is that I was in New York forever, I thought this was like a stomping ground to LA. I thought I was going to come here and write movies from the beach. Never meant to live a movie, which is how it's felt for me a little bit, but I absolutely love it here. It’s like the best-kept secret, and still, when you say San Diego to people, it doesn't register for that. They're like, “Oh, yeah, maybe I'll go visit,” but it's like in the shadow of LA, versus a place that people want to live at.

 

Griffin Thall  21:37

Yeah, it's just very different. I definitely spend a lot of time in LA, probably like a third, a third of the month in LA and two-thirds here. I think LA offers a little bit more liveliness and that upbeat vibe. A little bit of a city vibe like in New York, but by the beach. Then, to me, San Diego is very chill, very laid back, very nice, no traffic, easy, convenient, could walk everywhere, don't have to worry about crime or anything. It's pretty mellow.

 

Ryan Berman  22:08

Did you ever have any mentors that you turned to, or did you sort of just have to figure it out?

 

Griffin Thall  22:14

Yeah, I actually just had lunch with my mentor. I just came from lunch with him. He was my senior year marketing professor at San Diego State, and he actually… He and I connected because he sold a business, and then, retired for six years, and then, became a professor at San Diego State because he was bored. I was in his class, and basically, we just had a great connection and became friends. And he ended up going to my graduation dinner. And that was right when I graduated college, and I just had lunch with him an hour ago. So, he’s been a part...

 

Ryan Berman  22:47

Oh, who is it?

 

Griffin Thall  22:49

Steven Osinski.

 

Ryan Berman  22:50

Okay, cool. Very cool.

 

Griffin Thall  22:51

So yeah, he's been a mentor. You could call it business, personal, family, whatever, but he's always been a good coach because he went through starting a business, selling a business, retiring, getting married, having kids. So, he's a good role model.

 

Ryan Berman  23:06

Are you in the ‘getting married, married, have kids…?’ Any kids, or married, or not there yet?

 

Griffin Thall  23:13

No, not right now.

 

Ryan Berman  23:15

The business is the baby.

 

Griffin Thall  23:17

Yeah.

 

Ryan Berman  23:18

Does it feel like a baby or does it feel like… How old would the brand be? I know you said it’s 12, but, in your mind, where is it? Is it a teenager? Is it in college years? Where do you think the brand is?

 

Griffin Thall  23:31

I don't know, I never thought about it like that. I think the brand is how we started it out to be. It's always evolving but I think that our core customer, and demographic, and branding style is consistent to helping in.

 

Ryan Berman  23:45

You can totally allay this question if you want, but I'm just very curious. In your mind, do you see the brand staying independent forever, or is it something that you think, at some point, you'd sell? If yes, what do you hope…? Okay, let's say you did sell it, if you do anything, if you get one thing right with the brand, make sure you…? What's the answer there?

 

Griffin Thall  24:11

So, we did get acquired three and a half years ago.

 

Ryan Berman  24:14

Oh, there’s the answer. Okay, great. How's that been?

 

Griffin Thall  24:17

It's been good, it's been a fun ride. We've been with the parent company for three and a half years now, and it's been a merge of our brand, and their brand, and keeping the culture separate, but migrating some of our systems, and accounting, and logistics, and legal, and stuff like that under their platform.

 

Ryan Berman  24:36

In your mind, why were they the right fit?

 

Griffin Thall  24:40

Well, we spent like a year interviewing partners. We had 25 meetings with different buyers and we had seven offers. And then, we had two companies kind of come back and forth with offers, and we decided to go with a company called Vera Bradley because they were founder-started by two best friends, two women best friends. And they created a handbag out of passion, and it ended up becoming a very big sensation when they started the business. And ended up going public for like a billion-plus dollar valuation, and they had a really great experience with it. So, after meeting with them, amongst all the other private equity firms that we interviewed, we felt that they were a good fit culture-wise, and they're big at donating to charity, and it was started by two best friends. It just felt like a really good fit.

 

Ryan Berman  25:27

Is there one big takeaway that you've had since you've started working with them?

 

Griffin Thall  25:34

They helped us open up to five retail stores, which I don't think we could have done on our own. They've definitely helped us become a little bit more streamlined and organized, and helped us open up some big key accounts on the wholesale side. So, they've definitely helped on some of that stuff. But they kept eComm separate, kept our marketing and branding separate. So, it’s kind of what happens when there's a purchase or requisition, they want to bring in some of the nuts and bolts into their business.

 

Ryan Berman  26:02

As we come to a close here, I'm curious if you're mentoring anybody right now.

 

Griffin Thall  26:10

I have some friends that I talk to about their businesses. I don't really give it an official mentorship, but I’m an access point for them with questions, or what they need help with, or a problem they have. They just email me and I send them the answer in a second just because I'm passionate about entrepreneurship, and problem-solving. And a business like us, we've seen a lot of things come our way to get to the size that we are, and we've overcome a lot of challenges. I'm not saying we know every answer by any means, but we definitely know a lot for eCommerce startups.

 

Ryan Berman  26:42

As you think back to the last 12 years, is there a moment where you're like, “Wow, that was actually really courageous of us to do X, Y, or Z”? So, let's say there was a podium; a gold, silver and a bronze moment of courage, do you know that off the top of your head, or is there one major courageous moment that you would turn to?

 

Griffin Thall  27:03

I think maybe a courageous moment was when we told our team that we were getting acquired by a bigger company. I think that was really difficult to overcome just because it’s been the Paul and Griff show for so long, for eight and a half years. Then three and a half years ago, we got acquired and we had to make an announcement to our team, and it was courageous. It was tough, we were scared, we had a pit in our stomach the night before. “How are we going to make this announcement? Is everyone going to leave?” Blah, blah, blah. There was a lot of fear, and we told them why we did it, and the passion behind it, and the reasoning, and we overcame it. And then I think we made a great move, and we're happy we did it.

 

Ryan Berman  27:42

Did anybody bail on you guys?

 

Griffin Thall  27:46

No, no one bailed.

 

Ryan Berman  27:47

It's pretty awesome. What I can sense from this -- and again, first time you and I've ever chatted, what I really appreciate is how real you are. I think just keeping it authentic and just sort of telling you like it is, it's nice to see that. You don't always see that with founders and entrepreneurs. So, keep doing what you're doing. It's amazing to watch the brand grow. And also, you're helping the artisans. I think I've read over 800 artisans that you've worked with, sold over 20 million bracelets. All right, I've got one more for you. So, if you weren't doing this, or when you choose not to do this, do you follow in your mentor’s footsteps and teach entrepreneurship? Do you go to the beach with the book [Inaudible 28:38] so close? What do you do?

 

Griffin Thall  28:39

No, I don't think I would go to the beach with a book. I think I would just see the next opportunity that comes my way, provide value where I see fits, get involved with a small startup or guide to founders, or coach them. Just find an area that I'm interested in and either consult or help. I think I could provide feedback to startups from a knowledge point of view, but also, just a high-level creative point of view as well.

 

Ryan Berman  29:07

Awesome man. Thank you so much for joining us on the show, Griffin. I appreciate you.

 

Griffin Thall  29:11

Of course. Thanks so much, man.

 

Ryan Berman  29:15

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Courageous Podcast. If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to rate and review us on Apple podcasts so more people can find us. See you again next week.

 

(Outro music 29:25-29:40)

 

 

[End Of Audio]